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	<title>Comments on: July 4 &#8211; Celebrating Interdependence Day [Vol. 2, #25]</title>
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	<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/</link>
	<description>News and conversation on missional reading for church communities.  The Podcast of the Englewood Review of Books  http://www.englewoodreview.org/</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Adams</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22382</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 05 Jul 2011 20:30:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>And yet, David, a &quot;warrior&quot; with much blood on his hands was a man after God&#039;s own heart ..... u00a0You are free to exercise your beliefs because others have done and do what will not - put their lives on the line to stop those who would gladly kill you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yet, David, a &#8220;warrior&#8221; with much blood on his hands was a man after God&#8217;s own heart &#8230;.. u00a0You are free to exercise your beliefs because others have done and do what will not &#8211; put their lives on the line to stop those who would gladly kill you.</p>
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		<title>By: Conniemarie143</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22371</link>
		<dc:creator>Conniemarie143</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 18:37:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>There is absolutely NO reason have a &quot;counter-holiday&quot;, other than an anti-patriotic statement.u00a0 I could never support that.u00a0 I could very much support the idea of an Interdependence Day that was not created in protest.u00a0 Many of the suggestions are creative and beneficial.u00a0 So I propose that the date be changed to August 4th.u00a0 Or any other non-national holiday, for that matter (except May 5th, which is also already taken).u00a0u00a0 I would gladly participate under those circumstances.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is absolutely NO reason have a &#8220;counter-holiday&#8221;, other than an anti-patriotic statement.u00a0 I could never support that.u00a0 I could very much support the idea of an Interdependence Day that was not created in protest.u00a0 Many of the suggestions are creative and beneficial.u00a0 So I propose that the date be changed to August 4th.u00a0 Or any other non-national holiday, for that matter (except May 5th, which is also already taken).u00a0u00a0 I would gladly participate under those circumstances.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Adams</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22368</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:35:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>These men knew their dependence was upon God and so expressed it. u00a0Most of the 56 men who signed this were either tortured, killed or lost all they had. u00a0Some of them lost members of their family. u00a0What is wrong with taking one day to honor what they did and thousands after have done to secure those freedoms? u00a0Gratitude and thankfulness are important teachings of Jesus as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These men knew their dependence was upon God and so expressed it. u00a0Most of the 56 men who signed this were either tortured, killed or lost all they had. u00a0Some of them lost members of their family. u00a0What is wrong with taking one day to honor what they did and thousands after have done to secure those freedoms? u00a0Gratitude and thankfulness are important teachings of Jesus as well.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Adams</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22367</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Guys, this is really disrespectful. u00a0 Is your freedom to write this a &quot;myth?&quot; u00a0You have so many blessings in this country from the hand of God and the sacrifices so many thousands who have paid for your freedom in blood. u00a0In many countries you couldn&#039;t write this. u00a0You know that, but you have no appreciation. u00a0 I have no problem with recognizing the importance of all and our dependence on God. u00a0Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence - which is the basis of this celebration? u00a0nn&quot;When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature&#039;s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.nWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.n.....And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, this is really disrespectful. u00a0 Is your freedom to write this a &#8220;myth?&#8221; u00a0You have so many blessings in this country from the hand of God and the sacrifices so many thousands who have paid for your freedom in blood. u00a0In many countries you couldn&#8217;t write this. u00a0You know that, but you have no appreciation. u00a0 I have no problem with recognizing the importance of all and our dependence on God. u00a0Have you ever read the Declaration of Independence &#8211; which is the basis of this celebration? u00a0nn&#8221;When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature&#8217;s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.nWe hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.n&#8230;..And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of divine Providence, we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Adams</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22366</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 15:15:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erb.kingdomnow.org/?p=372#comment-22366</guid>
		<description>That military heroism gave you the freedom to hold such a jaded belief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That military heroism gave you the freedom to hold such a jaded belief.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Adams</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-22358</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Adams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 04 Jul 2011 08:40:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Thank you Mark. u00a0I have often said that its easy to be a pacifist when the blood of others defends their right to be so. u00a0Can we not honor those who sacrificed their very lives that you may now enjoy this freedom to question. u00a0German Christians in WW2 did not have this luxury.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Mark. u00a0I have often said that its easy to be a pacifist when the blood of others defends their right to be so. u00a0Can we not honor those who sacrificed their very lives that you may now enjoy this freedom to question. u00a0German Christians in WW2 did not have this luxury.</p>
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		<title>By: Ryan</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-5142</link>
		<dc:creator>Ryan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:47:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Substitutionary atonement is blasphemy and God does not achieve victory through murderous military victories. I would laugh at the notion of America as the bearer of God&#039;s good news if it didn&#039;t sadden me so much that you believe in such idolatry. Ask an Iraqi what he or she thinks of the God that America stands for.

God has no hand in the murder of innocents, which happens in all wars, especially modern ones. God does not endorse the American program of oppression and enslavement in the name of peace. You can not domesticate the One Who Calls to sit beneath the stars and stripes.

God achieves victory through the triumph over the power of death in giving ones life openly and defiantly to the powers in the name of the justice of God&#039;s reign. Jesus was executed legally by a state hostile to the reign of God. The powers continue in their hostility to the reign of God in the shape of empires and wars for &quot;the American Way of Life.&quot;

Our God was executed in the person of Jesus Christ. Those who murdered him and shatter the body of Christ through murder are worthy of ambivalence at best--resistance at their worst. The cowardice of murder, military or otherwise, stands in direct opposition to the courage of martyrdom--which is the way of God.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Substitutionary atonement is blasphemy and God does not achieve victory through murderous military victories. I would laugh at the notion of America as the bearer of God&#8217;s good news if it didn&#8217;t sadden me so much that you believe in such idolatry. Ask an Iraqi what he or she thinks of the God that America stands for.</p>
<p>God has no hand in the murder of innocents, which happens in all wars, especially modern ones. God does not endorse the American program of oppression and enslavement in the name of peace. You can not domesticate the One Who Calls to sit beneath the stars and stripes.</p>
<p>God achieves victory through the triumph over the power of death in giving ones life openly and defiantly to the powers in the name of the justice of God&#8217;s reign. Jesus was executed legally by a state hostile to the reign of God. The powers continue in their hostility to the reign of God in the shape of empires and wars for &#8220;the American Way of Life.&#8221;</p>
<p>Our God was executed in the person of Jesus Christ. Those who murdered him and shatter the body of Christ through murder are worthy of ambivalence at best&#8211;resistance at their worst. The cowardice of murder, military or otherwise, stands in direct opposition to the courage of martyrdom&#8211;which is the way of God.</p>
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		<title>By: GG</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-5141</link>
		<dc:creator>GG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:14:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erb.kingdomnow.org/?p=372#comment-5141</guid>
		<description>In 1776 colonialism was an evil political enslavement by one race over many peoples for exploitation of natural resources and cheap labor.

It took a big hit with the American Revolution and Declaration of Independence but mostly in the USA.

Instead of white Europeans conquering vast territory for the KING and his subjects(often under the guize of bringing Christianity to the heathens), we are now witnessing corporate rape and pillage working with corrupt puppet governments to extract wealth from poor countries under unjust terms. The local populations are frequently treated as near-free labor and receive little benefit from the rape of their countries and unsafe, unhealthy labor conditions.

How much is a barrel of Nigerian oil worth?

Is a diamond engagement ring really a symbol of undying love?

Does your SUV really give you freedom?

Is there such a thing as &quot;clean coal&quot;?

What are the true life-cycle, global, costs of
our life-styles? Twenty percent of the world population consumes 80% of the resources. What happens when the 80% strives to live as the 20% do?

When a billion Chinese start up their SUVs in the morning, we will die of exphixation.

Independence from tyranny is a good thing. Living like we are independent of the basic forces of nature is pure folly and irresponsible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1776 colonialism was an evil political enslavement by one race over many peoples for exploitation of natural resources and cheap labor.</p>
<p>It took a big hit with the American Revolution and Declaration of Independence but mostly in the USA.</p>
<p>Instead of white Europeans conquering vast territory for the KING and his subjects(often under the guize of bringing Christianity to the heathens), we are now witnessing corporate rape and pillage working with corrupt puppet governments to extract wealth from poor countries under unjust terms. The local populations are frequently treated as near-free labor and receive little benefit from the rape of their countries and unsafe, unhealthy labor conditions.</p>
<p>How much is a barrel of Nigerian oil worth?</p>
<p>Is a diamond engagement ring really a symbol of undying love?</p>
<p>Does your SUV really give you freedom?</p>
<p>Is there such a thing as &#8220;clean coal&#8221;?</p>
<p>What are the true life-cycle, global, costs of<br />
our life-styles? Twenty percent of the world population consumes 80% of the resources. What happens when the 80% strives to live as the 20% do?</p>
<p>When a billion Chinese start up their SUVs in the morning, we will die of exphixation.</p>
<p>Independence from tyranny is a good thing. Living like we are independent of the basic forces of nature is pure folly and irresponsible.</p>
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		<title>By: Skeptical Critic</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-5120</link>
		<dc:creator>Skeptical Critic</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:08:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erb.kingdomnow.org/?p=372#comment-5120</guid>
		<description>There has been too much emphasis on miliary heroism.  Defense of our land and her liberties is one thing -- a most important thing.  But, offensive military action, overt or clandestine, that interferes with the sovereignty and self-determination of other people is quite another thing. Our hallowed flag and almost all displays of fidelty to our land have been marred by our painfully lengthy history of interventionism in other people&#039;s affairs.  Isn&#039;t it time that we reassess the meaning of patriotism and reclaim it in the name of communitarian values that uphold our liberties as one nation?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There has been too much emphasis on miliary heroism.  Defense of our land and her liberties is one thing &#8212; a most important thing.  But, offensive military action, overt or clandestine, that interferes with the sovereignty and self-determination of other people is quite another thing. Our hallowed flag and almost all displays of fidelty to our land have been marred by our painfully lengthy history of interventionism in other people&#8217;s affairs.  Isn&#8217;t it time that we reassess the meaning of patriotism and reclaim it in the name of communitarian values that uphold our liberties as one nation?</p>
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		<title>By: jarvisbearcub</title>
		<link>http://erb.kingdomnow.org/july-4-celebrating-interdependence-day-vol-2-25/comment-page-1/#comment-5117</link>
		<dc:creator>jarvisbearcub</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Jun 2009 16:27:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://erb.kingdomnow.org/?p=372#comment-5117</guid>
		<description>God calls us to belong to nation-states and participate fully in those communities. Romans 13 makes the Christian commitment to the State very clear. Jesus&#039; submission to the laws of the State are what led to his crucifixion. Particularly, we are called to &quot;render unto Caesar&quot; what is Caesar&#039;s. We belong to different kinds of communities as people and we all have commitments to those communities to varying degrees, whether it is the State, the cul-de-sac, the apartment building, the church, the Kiwanis&#039; club, our places of work, even. Government acts, in the best case scenario, as the agent of God and we strive as Christians to reach a place where our government reflects that. 

Of course, that leads to the question of how a government reflects Christ. And we discern that by remembering that our primary commitment is to Christ, and so our primary source of reflection for how we live out our commitments is our Church, even above the State. For we cannot serve two masters. And if our primary concern is to the U.S., then our primary concern is to our personal liberty, which does not seem to be much of a concern for Jesus, Paul, the prophets, or other Biblical leaders. There is emancipation from slavery, and the re-establishment of the temple, but individual liberty puts the self first, not God. 

I don&#039;t want to live in a country without religious freedom or other personal freedoms. The government is not perfect and a certain amount of autonomy from it is required to prevent tyranny. But for a Christian, faithfulness to God is our ultimate end. And this means, I believe, not shedding the blood of another for his/her sins (as this was what I believe Christ accomplished on the cross), and envisioning our wars differently, both in how we approach our enemies and how we envision the very purposes of our wars (Eph. 6). And our freedom, in relation to this task, is secondary. That is our ultimate point of reflection. 

But that does not preclude us from commitments to the State, nor participation in social groups or identification with the varied gifts and national and racial and gender and sexual differences which God gifted to us. So even as we grieve those were unjustly murdered in the name of protecting our liberty and securing land and commodities to make into private property for our freedom, and even as we debate whether or not the earth is &quot;ours&quot; or Gods, we can still celebrate how our system of democracy as Americans still stands as a beacon to the rest of the world.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God calls us to belong to nation-states and participate fully in those communities. Romans 13 makes the Christian commitment to the State very clear. Jesus&#8217; submission to the laws of the State are what led to his crucifixion. Particularly, we are called to &#8220;render unto Caesar&#8221; what is Caesar&#8217;s. We belong to different kinds of communities as people and we all have commitments to those communities to varying degrees, whether it is the State, the cul-de-sac, the apartment building, the church, the Kiwanis&#8217; club, our places of work, even. Government acts, in the best case scenario, as the agent of God and we strive as Christians to reach a place where our government reflects that. </p>
<p>Of course, that leads to the question of how a government reflects Christ. And we discern that by remembering that our primary commitment is to Christ, and so our primary source of reflection for how we live out our commitments is our Church, even above the State. For we cannot serve two masters. And if our primary concern is to the U.S., then our primary concern is to our personal liberty, which does not seem to be much of a concern for Jesus, Paul, the prophets, or other Biblical leaders. There is emancipation from slavery, and the re-establishment of the temple, but individual liberty puts the self first, not God. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t want to live in a country without religious freedom or other personal freedoms. The government is not perfect and a certain amount of autonomy from it is required to prevent tyranny. But for a Christian, faithfulness to God is our ultimate end. And this means, I believe, not shedding the blood of another for his/her sins (as this was what I believe Christ accomplished on the cross), and envisioning our wars differently, both in how we approach our enemies and how we envision the very purposes of our wars (Eph. 6). And our freedom, in relation to this task, is secondary. That is our ultimate point of reflection. </p>
<p>But that does not preclude us from commitments to the State, nor participation in social groups or identification with the varied gifts and national and racial and gender and sexual differences which God gifted to us. So even as we grieve those were unjustly murdered in the name of protecting our liberty and securing land and commodities to make into private property for our freedom, and even as we debate whether or not the earth is &#8220;ours&#8221; or Gods, we can still celebrate how our system of democracy as Americans still stands as a beacon to the rest of the world.</p>
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